ASSEMBLY ELECTIONS | AN PHOBLACHT SPEAKS TO MARTIN McGUINNESS, JOINT FIRST MINISTER

‘We are making huge strides forward’

AHEAD of May’s Assembly elections - and just before the murder of PSNI Constable Ronan Kerr, AN PHOBLACHT spoke to Sinn Féin deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness about the Assembly and the all-Ireland institutions past, present and future. A fuller version is posted on the An Phoblacht website.

Ian Paisley Snr has just bowed out of politics after a career that has seen him travel a path from a firebrand preacher storming up the Falls Road to seize a Tricolour to sharing government with Sinn Féin ministers. He has been the political giant of modern-day unionism. What has your relationship been like with him?

When we set about the work of trying to bring the DUP into the institutions it was against the backdrop of many people saying it couldn’t be done, but we did manage it.
We managed to convince skeptics that it was our due, that it was possible to do it and whenever the final agreement was reached on the 23rd and 24th March 2007 that really began our first real engagement with the Democratic Unionist Party.
The meetings that were held then were effectively between Peter Robinson and myself. He had with him Ian Paisley Junior and Nigel Dodds; Gerry Kelly and Conor Murphy were with me. That culminated in the now much-heralded first meeting between our delegation and the DUP led by Ian Paisley - our delegation led by Gerry Adams - which effectively announced that the power-sharing in all-Ireland institutions would be reactivated on 8th May 2007.
And when I sat down with Ian Paisley for the first time, it was he who said to me -  and these were his exact words - “We can rule ourselves. We don’t need direct-rule ministers coming over from England telling us what to do.”
For me that represented common ground that both of us could stand on - I as an Irish republican and he as someone who regards himself as a unionist.
One year in the department together and we developed a civilised and cordial working relationship. During that time I think it was apparent to all that, to deliver the unionist community for this new way forward, Ian Paisley was someone who was absolutely essential in terms of moving along that path
During the time I think he did say a number of very powerful things, not least in the aftermath of the first meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council when he talked about the need to end the old hatreds and divisions and the need for all of us to move forward together. That was against the backdrop of that meeting which saw a photograph being taken in which there were about 12 ministers from the South and some number from the North and there wasn’t a British minister in sight!

And now with his successor, Peter Robinson?
It was Danny Kennedy who christened Ian Paisley and myself ‘The Chuckle Brothers’ and in a way that he hoped we would see us being seen in a disparaging light by the community but that wasn’t the way that people saw it - it had the opposite effect. People liked us having the ability to work together.
When Ian Paisley stood down as First Minister and leader of the DUP and Peter Robinson came into the Office of the First and Deputy First Minister people within the media mainly described us as ‘The Brothers Grimm’ but that turned out to be a fallacy also.
I think I’ve developed a good working relationship with Peter Robinson but I think the fundamental change that happened, and it was a change for the better, was during the course of the Hillsborough negotiations. Against a backdrop of big names within the DUP opposing the transfer of the powers of policing and justice, during the course of that negotiation it was actually delivered and I think that my relationship with Peter Robinson has been much more productive since Hillsborough than it was prior to it.

Unionists seem to be at odds about the possibility of a Sinn Féin First Minister after May’s Assembly elections. How do you see it?
I think there’s too much fixation on this issue.
The reality is that in the position of First and Deputy First Minister, Peter Robinson and I have got equal authority. The institutions that we’re part of don’t work if we’re constantly at loggerheads with one another.
In the event that Sinn Féin did emerge as the largest party in the North - and that’s a matter for the electorate, I can’t presume the outcome of the elections - I am very firmly of the view that the titles of First Minister and deputy First Minister should be abolished and that both leading politicians on the nationalist and unionist sides should be regarded as either Joint First Ministers or just simply as the First Ministers.

On the Assembly Budget, it would be difficult to have agreed one that pleases everyone but what would you say to its critics?
It would be surprising if there weren’t critics.
The reality is that we’re facing into a world economic recession, that there’s been a change of government in London, and that government has moved to cut very deeply. And it has also violated an agreement that we, and by we I mean all the parties in the Assembly who met with the British Government prior to the establishment of the institutions whenever we negotiated a very substantial Budget for capital projects up to 2017. So this government in London has reneged on that to the tune of some £4billion and they’ve cut almost 8% out of our current on top of that. So this was always going to be a very difficult and challenging position but rather than lie down we challenged people to consider how we could lessen the impact of the  £4billion cuts by raising our own revenues. During the course of the establishment of the Budget Review Group set up by Peter Robinson and myself, we did manage to gather something like £1,600million which is designed to minimise the impact of the swingeing cuts that the British Government have imposed on us.
It doesn’t really matter what Budget we would have agreed there would have been criticisms and those criticisms have come against the backdrop of what have been ruthless cuts by a government made up of multi-millionaires in London.

Financial power still ultimately rests in the hands of politicians at Westminster and that must be frustrating to legislators here. Is there any consensus appearing in the North about the need for these powers to be the right and responsibility of the Assembly?
Sinn Féin has argued for fiscal powers, for the tools to combat the recession and for the ability to develop an all-island economy, which we think is absolutely essential if we’re to combat effectively the recession on behalf of all of our people. So the debate has begun, for example around issues like the Corporation Tax rate.

What do you see as being the Assembly’s biggest achievements so far?
I think there have been a number of big achievements but the one that has been referred to the most is the fact that when we went into government together people said first of all that it wouldn’t happen and then when we made it happen they said, ‘Okay, you made it happen but it won’t last’ - and it has lasted four years. I think that has to stand for something but, at the same time, eaten bread is soon forgotten
What we have to recognise that it has been an incredible accomplishment in terms of having a very inclusive political process in the North with all major strands of opinon involved and supported by all of the other major strands of political opinion on the island. That represents a massive leap forward.
We now hear no more talk about institutions collapsing. In fact, they have been tested very severely in the course of recent times, not least by, for example, the killing of the two soldiers in Antrim and the killing of Stephen Carroll the policeman, and I think that those actions were designed to try and destroy the Peace Process.
I think there have been other achievements against a backdrop of the world recession which has impacted on jobs. For example, we’ve managed to bring more jobs in as a result of foreign direct investment in a two-year period than any similar period in the history of the North, and that’s come about because Peter Robinson and I are seen internationally to be working very closely together

Which MLA - outside of Sinn Féin - has impressed you and why?
Peter Robinson. For the simple reason that at the beginning of last year he was portrayed by the media as down and out as someone who was within a short period of resignation.
To come through what he’s been through and not just come through it but to engage in a vital negotiation at Hillsborough and to deliver his party - particularly when you consider that there was huge opposition within his party to the transfer of policing powers - was an accomplishment that’s worthy of credit.

What, in your view, has been the Assembly’s best moment?
The legislation on the transfer of powers on policing and justice.
And we did it against a backdrop of a failure by both governments to deliver that aspect of the St Andrew’s Agreement that compelled Sinn Féin to go forward with a new approach to policing, something that wasn’t easy for us to do but it was absolutely vital during the course of the Hillsborough negotiations that was delivered for our people.

What is your vision of the Assembly in the immediate future and in the long-term?
My vision is an all-Ireland vision.
The Assembly and the all-Ireland institutions are of crucial importance as we move forward. They are the foundation stone of the Good Friday Agreement.
So I would like to see us working more closely together in the North and between North and South. I want to see people recognising the value of the North/South institutions, particularly in terms of how we develop our economy and how we can gain savings that can be put to the benefit of all of the people who live on the island.
The dramatic breakthrough by Sinn Féin in the South, moving from four TDs to 14 is the breakthough that we have been working for and greatly enhances the all-Ireland agenda.
The situation now is where we have, combined, 41 TDs and MLAs and the manifestation of that presenting itself with the visit of all those TDs to Parliament Buildings was one of the most dramatic days in the Assembly in the course of recent times and sends a clear message about the need for all of us to work to an all-Ireland agenda.

We are approaching Easter and a time for commemorating those who have given their lives to the cause of Irish freedom. Do you ever question if republicans today are getting it right?
I think we are getting it right.
I am absolutely convinced that the course that we have chosen, which is overwhelmingly supported by republicans on this island,  overwhelmingly supported by those who came out of the prisons, is the correct way to go. And it has been overwhelmingly supported by people in republican heartlands throughout the North.
The fact is there are now more Irish republicans in the North of Ireland than at any other time in the history of the North and I think that will increase as the years continue to move forward. I think that’s what will bring us to Irish reunification and I believe that the small, unrepresentative, misguided groups that are out there, who want to undo the gains that we have made, have got it wrong.
As we approach Easter, we do so in good heart and in good shape and we’re a growing political party now all over the island. I think that we are making huge strides forward and we’re involved in a real engagment with our unionist brothers and sisters and we’re involved in an entirely new project from that known by republicans in the past, one that is about bringing about the reunification of the people of Ireland by peaceful and democratic means.
There is no greater vindication of that strategy than the numbers of people who are now voting for Sinn Féin because they see Sinn Féin as a vehicle towards reunification, as a party that is very loyal to that primary political objective but also very determined to fight battles alongside those who will fight with us  against unemployment, against poverty, against social deprivation and against the worst effects of this recession.